Resting, Regenration, Death and Injury

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Re: Resting, Regenration, Death and Injury

Postby youngneil1 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:33 pm

Yeah, totally agree - it's the discussion that matters, not how exactly IceBlink turns out in the end (especially indeed due to scripting options; also perhaps I will even like something more than I think now once I see it in action;: thinking back I have changed my opinions and tastes over time, so perhaps (more appropriate: definetely) I will learn a lot of valuable stuff here by discussing, playing and finally designing.

Being vulnerable while drinking potions as well as taking some time sounds totally right to me. I tried (at least somewhat successfully, mostly with the help of anonter community member: Toccatta) to reactviate potion drinking animations in Two Worlds 2 to stop that instaneous mass drinking of potions and prevent blcoking/evading while drinking.
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Re: Resting, Regenration, Death and Injury

Postby Lurking Grue » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:40 pm

youngneil1 wrote:I tried (at least somewhat successfully, mostly with the help of anonter community member: Toccatta) to reactviate potion drinking animations in Two Worlds 2 to stop that instaneous mass drinking of potions and prevent blcoking/evading while drinking.

If memory serves, drinking potions had an animation, and quite a slow one at that, in the Gothic series of CRPGs (counting the PB made Gothics only). Because of that, it was practivally impossible to drink potions in the middle of a battle. Your character would put away his weapon, draw the potion and then drink it, all the while your enemies would be pummeling you with their attacks. I liked this approach a lot, no more potion-drinking in the middle of battle. Do it before or after the battle, but not while you are surrounded by 3 angry orcs trying to kill you.

Also, in the Witcher 1, every potion had a Toxicity rating which would add to together to a Toxicity Level. The Toxicity of a potion would eventually wear off (as the potion's effects too), but if you didn't allow for your Toxicity Level to drop and kept drinking potions regardless, you'd suffer the heavy consequences (can't really remember what they were, heh, as it's been so long since I played it and I was very careful with my potion-drinking) of "potion overdose".

Forgetting potions and concerning the original topic of this thread, I intended to comment injuries before, but had to leave that post unfinshed as I was interupted by work (such sad fate, to have to actually work at work... ;) ). Can't remember what I intended to write then, but as a rule, I've always been a fan of detailed and realistic damage/injury systems in RPGs. Now, I fully understand there's a wide range of tastes regarding what a good damage/injury system is. In addition, the case is a bit different between PnP and CRPG. In CRPGs there rarely has been damage/injury systems implemented beyond the basic HP bar and, I take it, most are fine with that. So, regardless of my wishes for a more detailed damage/injury system (one with hit locations, differening levels of wounds, etc,), I am content with the basic HP bar. However (you knew there was a "however" coming, right), I would hope that there would be an option in the IB engine to use a bit more detail than that. What I'd propose would be having at least the following three things as optional rules:

1. Level of Woundedness: There would be certain thresholds, where a character's (be that a PC, NPC, or monster) ability to do things would be impaired by the accumulated damage. Something like, at 50% HP lost the character is considered "Heavily Wounded" and all the dice rolls made by him/her/it are penalized by -2; at 75% HP lost the character is considered "Grievously Wounded" and all the dice rolls suffer a -4 (total, not cumulative with Heavily Wounded). These numbers are just examples, but the idea would be that a character is not able to function at full efficiency when he's lost 99% of his HP. I find it silly how in many games a character is completely unaffected by damage until he hits 0 HP (and then he drops dead).

2. Detailed Critical Hits: If a critical hit is scored, it would do "special damage" instead of just double or triple damage. These would be e.g. hits that cripple or otherwise badly injure limbs (penalties to weapon use if arms, to movement if legs, etc.), disarm the opponent, break their shield (if any), and so on. Of course, the list would have to be customizable, so that you can have genre-specific ones (sci-fi games would have little use for shield-breaking hits, for example). Maybe a small premade table from which the computer randomly chooses the special effect, which the mod maker has filled in with the special effect descriptions and game effects (would probably need scripting skills, though). This would sneakily work in hit locations (in a way), as now you would have special use for e.g. a helmet or bracers, as these would give extra protection vs critical hits, maybe like a save vs a crit that hits the protected location (e.g. Joe is wearing leather bracers, he's hit by a crit which describes an imparing wound to the arm; his bracers, however, give him a 35% chance to avoid the impairing effect and just take basic damage). Or something. (Note: Crits would still do, if these special effects are not used, double or triple damage by default.)

3. After-battle consequences of injuries: To make medical skills and equipment more useful and important, there could be more effects to injuries than just HP loss. After the battle, the computer could check vs each wounded character's Constitution/Health/Whatever, modified by the amount of damage suffered. If the roll/save succeeds, everything's OK. If the roll fails, the computer rolls/assigns an after-effect for it. These could be, e.g. further HP loss in the form of bleeding, status effects representing impariment (e.g. legs injured: Movement at 50%) or illness (like infection of the wound, etc.), and so on. Medical skills and equipment (and spells etc.) could be used to avoid and heal these. Example, Joe has suffered the loss of 60% of his HP in a battle. After the battle virtual dice roll (modified by -3 from the wounds) and, alas, indicate that Joe suffers from an after-effect Weakened Condition (-1 to all dice rolls until healed). His friend Frank the Healer has healing skills and special herbs (giving +2 to healing rolls). Frank applies his skills to Joe, virtual dice roll again, and lo!, Joe is cured of his impairing condition. Onwards to more butt-kicking for goodness!

Remember, I'm advocating having these as options. Not as something that must be used, but as something that could be used should the module maker choose so.
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Re: Resting, Regenration, Death and Injury

Postby youngneil1 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:01 pm

Been tinkering around with the concepts of rest and regeneration again. What I came up with below is not meant to be the all seeing truth and is just my very personal goal for the Grahir campaign. This should be really optional (for it's quite a bit away from the classical RPG systems), so it should not be enforced upon anybody. I will offer whatever I can in scritpting to realize this, slowing down Jeremy as minimal as I can:

That's how I plan to handle the need to rest and long time expiration of the party involving the new mechansim of RestedPercentage, that declines the longer the party does strenous adventures withoput resting:

After the end of a battle I will restore the party members' HP and SP up to the values they had before entering that battle (multiplied with their new RestedPercentage), but the RestedPercentage will drop over time (after each battle, after other strenous events, many moves on the map, i.e. passing of time, etc.), which will slowly lower their max hp and sp increasingly (CurrentMaxHP = AbsoulteMaxHP * RestedPercentage/100; same for SP). Characters start out with RestedPercentage 100 and this drops slowly, but continuously until they rest at a safe spot designated for resting by the module author. When a character's HP drop to zero in battles, but teh character is bandaged before dying (hp at -10 in battle==dead, 1 bleed per round), this causes an extra drop of RestedPercentage for this character due to that near death experience (and has additionally a chance of applying a special crippling wound to this character that requires healing in a nearby village, town or by really good healers in the party; crippling wounds will cause a -1 to all rolls of the character, cumulating for each new crippling wound). It would be nice to be able to create an (optional) custom field in the main screen game UI displaying the current RestedPercentage for each character. Perhaps simplest way is an - optional - third column next to "HP" and "SP" called "Rested%"), like "Charactername | 10 | 10 | 100%". To simplify things each point of RestedPercentage below 100 will reduce the max. HP and SP by 1% (mathematically rounded, min. remaining amount: 1 HP/1SP). Upon each change of the RestedPercentage the CurrentMaxHP would be adjusted - should these drop below the CurrentHP, CurrentHP=CurrentMaxHP. Same for SP.

Resting will only be possible on very special spots specifically flagged by the module author (default: not possible). A rest, involving around 8 hours of sleeping, will restore the RestedPercentage of all characters to 100 (as well as setting HP and SP to max; crippling wounds will not heal automatically though nor will it restore dead characters).

Taking a breath represents a 5 minute break and taking some air in. It will set HP and SP to the CurrentMax, i.e. the AbsoluteMAX * RestedPercentage. It will not increase the RestedPercentage nor will it heal crippling wounds nor will it restore dead characters (hp -10 or below). It will heal charcters that are already in negative hit points though, as long as tehse are not dead already. It's usually possible anywhere, unless flagged otherwise by the module author (default: possible). There might be some situations where the module won't allow taking a breath, e.g. when diving under water or when the party is under immense time pressure, like fleeing from a burning building. It would be great to have an - optional - shortcut button for Taking a breath in the main screen interface.

Whether a field allows resting or taking a breath could be a porperty of each map square in the toolset with resting by default off and taking a breath by default on.

To expand a little on the Crippling Wounds - there are three ways to get those:
1. due to dropping to 0 or below HP caused by a attack in combat (FORT save against (15+number of negative HP caused by that blow) to prevent the Crippling Wound),
2. due to receving a critical hit in combat (FORT save against the damage done by the critical hit) and
3. due to special attacks in- and outside combat (chances depend on the kind of special attack; e.g. traps are likely to cause crippling wounds: so they remain dangerous despite teh party being able quickly regain HP by taking a breath after passing the trapped area).
Each Crippling Wound will cause a cumulative -1 to all rolls of the character. To keep track of the Crippling Wounds a character suffers from, a forth column could be added to the row of characters in the main screen interface, labeled "CW", so it could look like "Charactername | 4 | 17 | 63% | 2". This charcter would have 4 HP, 17 SP, 63% Rest and suffer from 2 Crippling Wounds. Gets slowly time to think about finding shelter :-).

The idea behind reseting HP and SP after each combat to the value they had beforehand (but slightly reduced due to RestedPercentage dropping), is that of battles designed to be on the knife's edge, making the player fully use his ressources to survive and win the battle. Such a battle design in a traditional system would force the party very often to run back to safety to regain their HP and SP and then to run back again into e.g. the dungeon. I would like to reduce the number of such back and forth runs while at the same time having challenging, but very rewarding and fun battles. For the very same reason I opted to have characters not dead outright at 0 HP, but actually only at-10. Having one or two characters drop down in battle, should not automatically mean reload, but be an indication for an epic battle instead. At the same time this system keeps e.g. traps and other damaging stuff outside battles, i.e. on world map, dangerous: for one they can potentially cause Crippling Wounds, then they can still kill if dropping hp to -10 in one mean snap and finally these things might happen in areas where even taking a breath is not allowed. Finally I also use this - limited - auto regenration to free the player from having to use the same healing abilities repeatingly again and again after each battle - same goes for the Take a breath option.

As for UI integration, it would be cool if the numbers Rested% (RestedPercentage) and for CW (CripplingWounds) could also optionally be shown on the portrait based display of party status that Grue already has excellently worked out.
Last edited by youngneil1 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:45 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Resting, Regenration, Death and Injury

Postby youngneil1 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:36 pm

Updated and completed my above post on resting, regeneration, injury and death - introducing Rested Percentage, Crippling Wounds and Taking a breath.
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Re: Resting, Regenration, Death and Injury

Postby youngneil1 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:54 pm

While being focused on this stuff, it came to my mind that we would have to decide another two things concerning player charcters reaching zero or lower HP in combat:

1) Can the squares that their uncosonciuos bodies lie on be entered by enemies and 2) can heal spell/healing abilities not only stop the bleeding, but actually make them stand up again?

I think the answer to both questions is a little connected:

If unconscious palyers would block the field for enemies (and other player characters) that could lead to mean stuck/deadlock or even exploit situations. I am therefore in favour of turning their colliison off once they drop. This means that enemies can stand upon them - it would be bad if a character was brought to consiousness, his collission activating, while at the same time his square would be used by an enemy. Colllission collision ;-).

Therefore (and to give more strategic impotance to avoiding going to 0 hp or below) I am in favour of the rule that bleeding can be stopped via healing, but consciousness can only be regained after the battle. [Alternatively it would be regained in the moment the field would become free eventually].

In any case it should be possible to stop the bleeding of an ally while the field he is on is occupied by an enemy (though probably the healer will suffer an attack of opportunity then). Therefore the heal spell/healing ability should recognise that its target in such a situation is not the active monster/enemy on the squre, but the unconsicuous character on the very same square.

Similar problems will arise in the truest sense of the word, should there be spells to re-animate fallen monsters. But I will laeve that very specific one for later :-).

What do you think of this way of treating the unconscious characters in battle?
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Re: Resting, Regenration, Death and Injury

Postby youngneil1 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:07 pm

And another one:

A buffer up to -10 HP is a quite secure zone in the beginning of a campaign. But later on, on higher levels, this zone might easily be crossed by a single attack on an already wounded character - damage numbers will get higher and higher duing a campaign, while that -10 HP zone is static. Right now I think about making a (9 HP + char level) buffer. So it starts out with -10 HP, but at char lvl 10 it would have reached -19 already.

Furthermore once a charcater has dropped, he should be immune to all further damage (besides of course the 1 point of bleeding he suffers from reaching this unconscious state). Otherwise I see araa attacks easily erase our poor downed comerades ;-).

Both of these measures, combined with the RestedPercentage system above, should allow to design challenging battles, with an aggressive AI that - if representing intelligent creatures - systematically ties to take down already wounded or weak targets, purposefully attacking where it hurts ;-).

This "careful" handling of downed characters is for me also importnat, because I plan to not have any option of ressurection (for the players). The dead stay dead in Grahir (well, you know, usually...;-)).
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Re: Resting, Regenration, Death and Injury

Postby Lurking Grue » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:45 am

youngneil1 wrote:1) Can the squares that their uncosonciuos bodies lie on be entered by enemies

Characters (friends and enemies) need to be able to move through squares which have unconscious (or dead) characters, IMO. Otherwise such characters (or corpses) become roadblocks and that could produce a whole lot of problems (e.g. blocking a corridor completely, etc.). I'd say that staying in the same square as an unconscious character ought to hamper your maneuverability (can trip over the poor guy, etc.), but moving through the square should not be difficult (you just hop/step over him). A case could be made about large creatures and their bodies, which ought to block passage through the square(s) they occupy, but that's what I'd call "frosting on the cake" (i.e. I can live without it and maybe it's something that can be implemented after the engine is released & bug-free, and Jeremy wants something new to code ;)).

youngneil1 wrote:2) can heal spell/healing abilities not only stop the bleeding, but actually make them stand up again?

That ought to be choosable by the author as it depends on some many things, both game-wise and game world-wise. I will most probably go with a system (if it's possible), where characters who go to negative HP are knocked out, unless they go negative low enough to kill them. Knocked out characters will stay KO for the rest of the battle and for as long as their HP are negative. After the battle it will be possible to try to heal and revive the KO'd characters (medical skills, spells, etc.), if they are brought to positive HP again, they will regain consciousness.

I'm not sure if and how IB will handle bleeding and such, but as I've written before, I would like the damage system be quite thorough with all kinds of "special effects", so I'm hoping we at least get bleeding in its most basic form, as losing additional HP until it is stopped.

youngneil1 wrote:A buffer up to -10 HP is a quite secure zone in the beginning of a campaign. But later on, on higher levels, this zone might easily be crossed by a single attack on an already wounded character - damage numbers will get higher and higher duing a campaign, while that -10 HP zone is static.

I would like to use a percentage of max. HP in the calculations for the threshold between unconsciousness and death. I would also like to use very moderate HP increases per level, so that higher level characters will not be indestructible walking tanks with hundreds of HP. Will have to test the numbers out once I get the bare bones of my module done.
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Re: Resting, Regenration, Death and Injury

Postby youngneil1 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:39 pm

Characters (friends and enemies) need to be able to move through squares which have unconscious (or dead) characters, IMO. Otherwise such characters (or corpses) become roadblocks and that could produce a whole lot of problems (e.g. blocking a corridor completely, etc.). I'd say that staying in the same square as an unconscious character ought to hamper your maneuverability (can trip over the poor guy, etc.), but moving through the square should not be difficult (you just hop/step over him). A case could be made about large creatures and their bodies, which ought to block passage through the square(s) they occupy, but that's what I'd call "frosting on the cake" (i.e. I can live without it and maybe it's something that can be implemented after the engine is released & bug-free, and Jeremy wants something new to code ;)).


Hehe, totally agreed. Some dead, overweight bog giant's body might offer some nasty "hack through dead body" option to clear the field. Lots of gore incoming :-).

That ought to be choosable by the author as it depends on some many things, both game-wise and game world-wise. I will most probably go with a system (if it's possible), where characters who go to negative HP are knocked out, unless they go negative low enough to kill them. Knocked out characters will stay KO for the rest of the battle and for as long as their HP are negative. After the battle it will be possible to try to heal and revive the KO'd characters (medical skills, spells, etc.), if they are brought to positive HP again, they will regain consciousness.

I'm not sure if and how IB will handle bleeding and such, but as I've written before, I would like the damage system be quite thorough with all kinds of "special effects", so I'm hoping we at least get bleeding in its most basic form, as losing additional HP until it is stopped.


Again, sounds perfect. Bleeding should be in indeed (and those Crippling Wounds I will try to go for could get more complex than that -1 to rolls later on in the further refinement phase of the engine). And the unconscious staying uncosncious for the rest of the battle would be my favourite variant also.

I would like to use a percentage of max. HP in the calculations for the threshold between unconsciousness and death. I would also like to use very moderate HP increases per level, so that higher level characters will not be indestructible walking tanks with hundreds of HP. Will have to test the numbers out once I get the bare bones of my module done.


Rigth, in addtion to this I will probably have starting hitpionts a little higher than they usually are with D&D systems (otherwise the random element to battles is a little to strong for my taste). Like everybody starting with at least 10+ HP, up to 20. Then increases per level would be smaller though. The unconsciousness zone could then be something like (10 hp +10% of maxHP).
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Re: Resting, Regenration, Death and Injury

Postby Lurking Grue » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:30 pm

youngneil1 wrote:Rigth, in addtion to this I will probably have starting hitpionts a little higher than they usually are with D&D systems (otherwise the random element to battles is a little to strong for my taste). Like everybody starting with at least 10+ HP, up to 20. Then increases per level would be smaller though. The unconsciousness zone could then be something like (10 hp +10% of maxHP).

Yeah, I will definitely have higher starting HP than in D&D. It was darkly hilarious, that (at least in older editions) a 1st level wizard would have only 1d4 HP to start with. Basically, he could be killed by stubbing a toe on a rock. Now that's what I'd call dark fantasy, it sure is grim and gritty. :lol:

I was thinking of letting starting characters have around 15-25 HP, depending on their CON and Class. That way even the weakest of them can withstand a few solid hits before getting knocked out (if most melee weapons do around 1d6 to 1d10 damage, that is). Leveling up will add only circa 1d3+2 HP or so. Character death occurs around negative 5 + (25% of max. HP). But as I said above, I need to test these numbers, so they are kind of placeholders for now.
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Re: Resting, Regenration, Death and Injury

Postby youngneil1 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:36 pm

Yeah, I will definitely have higher starting HP than in D&D. It was darkly hilarious, that (at least in older editions) a 1st level wizard would have only 1d4 HP to start with. Basically, he could be killed by stubbing a toe on a rock. Now that's what I'd call dark fantasy, it sure is grim and gritty.

The sinsister Rock of Toe Mashing is the nemesis of those sandal wearing wizard apprentices, I heard that, too ;-).
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